Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

[Gypsy_Vanner]

Ok so what about a horse with laminitis....can that be reversed once the coffin bone has dropped and rotated?

Yeah, I realize I was talking about 2 different things.....LOL...I had myself confused for a min there.....lol I was thinking navicular and founder at the same time.....LOL

How is a hoof trimmed to repair a foundered horse? vs a Navicular horse? Same or different?

Here's a site where they successfully reverse laminitis/founder on horse, http://www.ironfreehoof.com/Druid.htm

[dreamalittledream]

Whitey was barefoot for a long time, but the root bound trails played havoc on alot of the horses feet.
I actually prefer my horses shoeless to be honest & Whitey spent his 1st winter with you guys shoeless, until the butcher farrier.
But he had hoof issues before that, if I felt for a minute that him being free of shoes I would not think twice about it, but with Whitey is just isnt an option.
Some horses it definately can be & of course the severity of their ND.

The reason his shoes & pads promote hoof growth is due directly to a good balanced trim 1st then the type of material that pad & fill his hoofs. It has give, its breathable & absorbs the concussion.
At one point Whitey had no hoof growth from trim to trim. Now that has changed & for that I will be forever grateful.

In 30 odd years of owning horses the only horse I ever had shoes on was my racehorses but they were pulled once they were home at the farm or turned out for winter ( we pulled them before they ever stepped into the trailer)
So I am not agaianst barefoot trimers or keeping shoes for needed situations, it really all depends on the horse & the work they may or may not be doing.

[Gallamist]

But, If you could find a knowledgable farrier that could 'reverse' his navicular by means of barefoot trimming would you try? Or would you stick with what you know works even tho the alternative could be better then shoes all the time?

What is the material used for the pads and 'filler' ? I though it was some sort of epoxy?

[dreamalittledream]

I would try Whitey barefoot in a minute if I knew that he wouldn't be in pain. His hoof care history when I got him was sketchy at best it took my first farrier awhile to work on bringing his hoof back to a more natural growth. Initially we dealt with flat soled plated feet, but Frank fixed him up good in a few trimmings.
But our trails were so root bound the 2nd season he was head bobbing on & off so we tried front shoes.

I was the one that actually asked Frank about equipacs & he said no he didn't think he needed them. After our work season was over the shoes came off. Eventually I had no choice but to go with pads for him because he would get so bruised from the trails.
I would have likely kept him barefoot but that nasty "farrier" was likely the straw that broke the camels back for him, I regret the choice I made that day to even let that guy touch his feet.

I just have yet to find a farrier that can keep him barefoot & relatively pain free so far.

[JezzaBella]

I regret the choice I made that day to even let that guy touch his feet.

OMG, you and me both!!! Poor Diesel and Charlie, considering what they were being put through they were all such good boys trusting us. Makes me feel like total crap when I think about it.... lesson learned WELL! I should have known there was something wrong when Diesel HOPPED on one foot to get away from this loser. He's awesome for the farrier and I reallly should have listened to him that day.

[isifa]

I understand not wanting to try barefoot because of the pain issue of "navicular" or laminitis, but the suggestions from Betamax and about ironfreehorse.com, do work, but it does take time. THAT is the issue. Shoes end up "MASKING" the problem and hiding the symptoms, but ultimately it is a time issue. There are other options such as hoof boots with pad inserted to get them comfortable. All I'm saying is think outside the box and be open to other options and think what is best for your horse in the long run, not short term solutions.

[Betamax]

Human nature IS a bit...I want it NOW...and we have a hard time to wait for anything. I know I don't always like the wait it takes to heal something on my own body. You have to trust in the process...have faith that this insult or injury will heal.

In horses the time is dramatically short in most of my experience. I am still amazed and in awe by the powers of the horse to heal...IF given the medium to do so.
NOT all barefoot trims are alike and the more I trim and read what others are doing...the more I realize this. I know what I do works...both in prevention and treatment and recovery. I have seen many farriers trim and a few 'barefoot' trimmers and there are things that are polar opposite in approach. I have been trimming this way for my own horses for almost 13 years and for others for about 10. I have documented a LOT of case studies...and every single one of them responded positively.

Everything is something one can deal with through this approach if you know what you are doing. Everyone can learn to trim their own horses with some help. Everyone can learn to trim others horses with some additional help and study...it's not the rocket science we were swayed to believe it is. It is simple and common sense ...the hard part is shifting our own line of sight slightly left field. To look at things from a different angle and it all starts to make complete sense.

[Gallamist]

Yeah I regret letting that butcher at my horses feet too! Should of listened to my horse better when his first hoof was hacked!

Yes, humans are impatient and when they want something they want it like yesterday! Not to often we are patient enough to wait for things.

Good things come to those who wait.

[dreamalittledream]

Just curious why you all assume that I never "thought outside of the box" with regards to my horse? I gave my horse plenty of time to come around w/o shoes. I tried the Mac's with the inserts, but I could just no longer stand by & watch my horse litterally quit wanting to move, standing with either front foot pointed or not even want to get up & eat.
So excuse me to hell but I think in Whitey's case I damn well do know what is best for him. I resent the fact that few of you know me & know very little about my experience & ability to offer my horses the best care possible.

I never looked for a quick fix for my horse, you can ask JezzaBella that or you can ask Trademark..or a number of others on this forum that know me.

But do not accuse me of taking the easy way out for MY own convenience over my horses well being.

I'm sorry that you all are unable to read my original posts...and those that followed...I never implied what I do for my horse is the only way, and I still do not see any documented proof that you can reverse ND. (that would be documented with studies & numbers by actual vets)

But None of you have the right to assume you know anything that I have been through with my horse, so best back off about that.

All I tried to do here was post an opinion, then I get accused of argueing but apparently its ok for you to argue your beliefs with my facts regarding my horse. Since I don't belief what you say I am old school & archaic...and incapable of thinking freely on my own.
I am in many ways old school, but I am not a moron & I realize that we need to remain active & dilligent in our continuing education with horses.

I will have no problem discussing this further if you all decide that you know nothing at all about my ability to care for my horses, otherwise I will not be interested in this thread any longer.
Which really is a shame, it could have been a good learning experience for many people if you weren't busy shoving barefoot, cure alls for Navicular down my throat.

[isifa]

My intent wasn't to upset you or make you feel like you haven't got a clue. That's a problem with writing online, there is no body language involved, so things can be taken differently from what was intended. You want proof and documentation. I'm not sure if you have heard of Dr. Robert Bowker, he had done research at MSU on navicular and laminitic horses. Just wondering if you have had xrays done?

[Betamax]

dreamalittledream... my intent was not to diminish what you have done either. We all do the best we can at the time.

I'm also sorry that you did not have a trimmer that could take you through transition and healing with your horse. The trim is SO important on horses that are compromised in the first place. It has to be very correct...as does the diet and footing and exercise...and also some rehab exercises...etc. It's a package.

You are not alone in one who 'tried barefoot' but it didn't work. That is because there are NOT enough qualified therapeutic trimmers out there at this point...not because a particular horse can't make it. I encourage everyone to learn about their horses feet.
Properties and function and healthy shape. It is true that we as horse owners tend to leave all of it to the farrier and vet and we chose to ride first and keep ourselves in the dark.

[Gypsy_Vanner]

Betamax..... in dreamalittledreams case though her horse wasn't moving. Without movement just the basic around he paddock a horse isn't going to be getting blood flow to the hoof area and the hoof is not going to be able to heal no matter what trim you do to that horse. If a horse is in so much pain that it can't move and she found a fix that involved shoe's then good or her. If it got the horse up and movin which is wasn't doing then even better.

I myself love the natural hoof care, I partcularily love the mustang roll but if my horse got to the point where my ferrier or a vet said that the well being lied in shoe's after my horse looks like it's about ready to die, after exhaustng barefoot then I would.

Honestly Betamax you have been coming off a little harsh sounding even if you don't think you may have.

[myevenstar]

Betamax- I have thoroughly enjoyed picking out the pieces of wisdom you have shared through out this thread.

You have a wealth of knowledge on the topic and have completely caught my interest. I entirely agree with you, in that as much as I am knowledgeable about my horses in most every other way, their feet are something I find myself lacking in. I know what looks "right" and what looks "wrong", but I want to have a greater understanding, rather than just leaving it to the farrier.

If my boys ever came down with such a condition as have been discussed through out this thread. I think the first route I would aim to go down, would be the ones you have outlined. It makes sense, it feels right and it sounds right.

[Betamax]

Thank you

am knowledgeable about my horses in most every other way, their feet are something I find myself lacking in. I know what looks "right" and what looks "wrong", but I want to have a greater understanding, rather than just leaving it to the farrier.

It is the missing link

If my boys ever came down with such a condition as have been discussed through out this thread. I think the first route I would aim to go down, would be the ones you have outlined. It makes sense, it feels right and it sounds right.

The cure lies in prevention and within the prevention you find the cure.

[Betamax]

Honestly Betamax you have been coming off a little harsh sounding even if you don't think you may have.

i think there is a difference in coming off as rude or condescending...rather than just saying something that someone doesn't want to hear.


If I can off as rude or condescending...my apologies.
If i said things that were rather not heard...i'm sorry

[Betamax]

Without movement just the basic around he paddock a horse isn't going to be getting blood flow to the hoof area and the hoof is not going to be able to heal no matter what trim you do to that horse.

True!...and no matter how much metal and plates and pads are secured to the bottom of the foot or around the wall of the foot will fix it either.
Although having said that ...with the right trim, diet and dedication...even with less than optimal circumstances...it has been done.

If a horse is in so much pain that it can't move and she found a fix that involved shoe's then good or her. If it got the horse up and movin which is wasn't doing then even better.

for the horse...i hope it's a fix.
I treat a lot of horses that cannot walk due to pain. A lot of them near the end of the long exhausting traditional battle to save them.
They always walk better after the initial trim and continue to go forward from there. the speed in which they go forward depends on a myriad of other factors....of which a good therapeutic trimmer could also help with...with the owners full participation in the initial healing process.

[dreamalittledream]

My intent wasn't to upset you or make you feel like you haven't got a clue. That's a problem with writing online, there is no body language involved, so things can be taken differently from what was intended. You want proof and documentation. I'm not sure if you have heard of Dr. Robert Bowker, he had done research at MSU on navicular and laminitic horses. Just wondering if you have had xrays done?

I didn't misunderstand your comments, nor do you have the power to make me feel like I haven't got a clue. Yes actually we did do not only xrays but several other tests prior to & after the 2 nd set.
And yes I have read & heard of Dr. Bowker's research actually I knew a girl that had her horse in a research group there.
At best it was inconclusive.

But I do trust My vet, a man I have known & used as my vet for 15 years.

Apparently this thread has become more about my horse & the things you precieve me to have done wrong by him.
I will not regret what I am doing for my horse, or his best interest.
But if any of you ever do have to deal with ND, I hope you have all the hindsight that you think that I should have excersized & I also hope for all of you that it works out well.

Personally though I'm quite done discussing my horse & my situation because its obvious you all know so much more then I do with regards to mt Vet, my farrier, my horse & my self.

[TradeMark]

I have not been active in this thread for multiple reasons, such as I have never had my own personal experience with a horse with navicular, or laminitis.. but some comments posted about "dreams" horse and experience, make me feel the need to speak up on a couple topics.

Shoes end up "MASKING" the problem and hiding the symptoms, but ultimately it is a time issue

Shoes do alot of things other than "MASK" a problem. Depending on the shoe, and the purpose, they can be theraputic aids as well. Personally, I have never had a horse that needed shoes. Though If my vet approached me and mentioned that it was an option I should think about, yes, I will consider it.. my vets opinion will out rank my farrier (with appropriate xrays and such). If they give my potentially immobile horse mobility and comfort, you are damned right I want my horse to be as comfortable as possible, as soon as possible, with the correct research and inquiries into methods.

i think there is a difference in coming off as rude or condescending...rather than just saying something that someone doesn't want to hear.

I find it ironic that you are calling her old school and close minded to the "barefoot" methods, when she's not even confronting your techniques or preferences and merely sharing her experience. She is not saying shoes work for everyone, or that it is even her prefered choice (I'm sure in reality she would much rather pay for a good, balanced, general trim than the $300+ for these theraputic shoes). You have said over and over again that barefoot is the answer to every hoof problem, and continued to push your views on everyone willing to read, but it has nothing to do with the "right" way, but more the options that are available to people with a navicular horse. Shoes may not be your thing, but they are a REALITY to many people. No one is pushing that reality on you, and I'm sure they would appreciate it if you would not get over bearing with your opinions as well.


I assume that most of you on this forum own your own horse, or have been close with horses in your life.. For those of you asking the questions of if "dreams" has "ever even had xrays done or tried boots" etc... do you honestly think someone with a horse with something as serious as navicular would not stress the other options before turning to a theraputic shoeing system? I witnessed the 3 years this owner had her horse in boots for riding purposes, and over a year of stressing out over his soundness... and the many, many expensive veterinary bills she recieved trying to resolve his pain issues and make him even remotely comfortable. I guess I am just surprised at the level of arrogance in "knowing" your method is the only correct way of going with foot issues among every single horse in existance.

Not every health problem is resolved through time, it takes a dedicated owner to get to the bottom of a pain or health problem and this is what works for this horse, how can you diagnose and prescribe something when you don't know any of this horses (or owners, for that matter) history or medical information? She was not asking for a diagnosis to begin with, only sharing her story to someone who could benefit, or possible learn from what she and her horse, as individuals, experienced.

[Betamax]

I find it ironic that you are calling her old school and close minded to the "barefoot" methods, when she's not even confronting your techniques or preferences and merely sharing her experience.

I am not calling her old school...(and i'm sure I didn't say close minded) but the methods that are suggested to her through the old school thoughts of vets and farriers. I say old school because ...well it is. Shoes and such are something that has been around for centuries...and yet has failed to cure one horse...only hold down the fort a while longer before the inevidible happens.
We have been shoeing horses for thousands of years...now this was long before horses were partners and friends...they were tractors and transportation. Long before we even realized what all the parts of the foot were and the function they performed to the rest of the horse. Long before we learned the detrimental effects of applying braces and calling the horse sound. These things are known now. In the past...when the horse stopped working...they did something to keep the horse in work for as long as they could and then...got another one.

Navicular 'disease' is something that should not even exist in the first place for horses. Prevention needs to be more understood by the old school...or implemented early on to help owners avoid the pitfalls of serious lameness rather than to treat the already presented symptoms like something that can't be cured.
Navicular is not something your horse can catch...not something that is a disease or is progressive either...as once thought. It is something that is 'man made' so to speak. while I have not seen this particular horse in person...I can probably venture a guess that there is most certainly contraction involved...which is also mad made. I can guess a tight shoulder/elbow and hamstrings to start. The symptoms are all the same...to some extent on each 'navicular' horse. You can pick them out of the crowd.

The AFA even wrote in their newsletter a few years back that over 90% of domestic horses world wide are 'lame' to some extent.
NOW why IS that when they are being taken care of by qualified farriers? as opposed to informed owners. We accept that lameness is part of horse ownership and it doesn't have to be...is all I"m saying.

Good conversation on this thread. I think anyone who wants to know more...will find out more.

[Gallamist]

Yep I agree Betamax

Very good thread and some interesting reading....definetly if someone wanted to keep there mind open and learn more they can.

I have to admit yrs ago when I first started riding I was close minded and thought all horses needed shoes! I learnt differently and my horse is barefoot and has never had a shoe on his hoof.

[In Alberta]

Was wondering if someone can post where they took the barefoot trim course at, and also the length and cost of the course. Thanks

[Reinergirl]

Betamax - a couple questions:

Does the barefoot trim work as well on horses that are kept in stalls? Just wondering if horses that are turned out 24/7 are more successful in their recovery (so to speak)
Also, do the seasons play any part in the speed of recovery? I'd be more willing to try the barefoot trim over the winter, when my guy isn't working as much and would have more time to adjust to his shoeless lifestyle.
For now he's staying in shoes, but if future xrays show that his condition is worsening, barefoot would be something I'd consider....

[Betamax]

Does the barefoot trim work as well on horses that are kept in stalls? Just wondering if horses that are turned out 24/7 are more successful in their recovery (so to speak)

A quite simple answer is yes....with attention to details and a program in place to follow through physiotherapy techniques which can also be learned. Healing is a process and not a quick fix.

Winter IS a great time to transition a horse...but can be done at any time in the year.

have you read this? http://www.equinextion.com/id21.html a little more on transitioning or the healing process.

[myevenstar]

Was wondering if someone can post where they took the barefoot trim course at, and also the length and cost of the course. Thanks

http://www.equinextion.com/id55.html

I didnt take this course, but it is offered through Betamex's site I believe. Lakeland college has some basic courses as well I think.

[Betamax]

There is some talk now of having a full course up in Edmonton in July.
anyone interested in that...just let me know...

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