Need farrier for navicular horse

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Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Reinergirl on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Hi all!

My guy is in the beginning stages of navicular (he has lollipop lesions on both navicular bones, moreso on the right than left), and I'm looking for a farrier that's very experienced in these issues. My guy is only 8, so I really need a reputable and experienced farrier to keep him going for a long time!
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:01 am

I have a great Farrier, he has been working with my boy since his diagnosis last year. He is young & he's only been at it for a few years but my horses feet ( all of my horses) have never looked and grown better.

I will pm his info, he is in the middle of a move right now but if you can get him he is well worth it.

What part of the city are you around? His new place is in Onoway but he usually doesnt have a problem making tracks lol. sunny

He was recomended to me by my Vet Sean Archibald.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Reinergirl on Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:18 am

Hey, thanks for your help! I'm actually moving my guy to a barn near Onoway in April...
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Betamax on Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:52 pm

Hello.
Navicular can be reversed and cured with a proper barefoot trim rather than traditional use of shoes and pads etc.
If you would like more information...look at www.equinextion.com and on the forum on that site too.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:03 am

Thanks, but I prefer my horse to be comfortable & be able to walk & play...

I don'y buy into a cure for navicular & have heard too many nightmares regarding barefoot farriers trying to "cure" horses with navicular.

But to each his own.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Betamax on Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:28 am

I have heard night mares too of unqualified trimmers out there too.
I have had a few horses that I have literally had cured of navicular dis ease.../syndrome.
I do understand your hesitation...but with shoes and pads there is NO cure...only slowing down the process perhaps. good luck to you.

http://vegasrecovery.blogspot.com/2007/09/equinextion-introduction.html had navicular and laminitis/founder for years when I met him...
This is only one such story...i have more on the website and forum
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:22 am

I don't belive it can be cured or reversed. It's not like it's a muscle issues it's in the bone/hoof of the horse. How do you reverse that and cure it? It's not like casting a broken bone.

You can maintain a horse with navicular and have him/her live a happy, healthy, painfree life.

As for curing it. I don't see it. JMO tho. Wink
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Reinergirl on Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:30 am

It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions... I must say, when I first heard my guy had navivular, I wasn't sure what to do! My vet recommended Equipak, rriy farrier said it wasn't necessary (yet) and we could just shoe him with wedge shoes, and the farrier I have now is simply working to correct his angles while keeping him shod.
It's really tough to know what to do as a navicular owner. My guy doesn't display much lameness, but still, it's impossible to know exactly how uncomfortable he is. It's difficult to make decisions for an animal that can't tell you what degree of pain he is in!
I just try to stay educated and make the best choices I can. Perhaps barefoot would be something I'd consider one day, if corrective shoeing doesn't prove to slow the degeneration process.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:17 pm

We had 2 horses when I was younger at the barn that had navicular.

One was shod with eggbar shoes and pads, the other was barefoot...Both were still able to be lightly ridden for many yrs to come.

I think the key is finding a farrier that is KNOWLEDGABLE with hoof issues in your particular case Navicular, showing him the x-rays will help him to trim and shoe your horse with the appropriate shoes as well.

Good luck with him and hope you find a solution that works best for you guys!!! Smile
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Betamax on Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:04 pm

There is a difference between being shod...being shod with pads/wedges/egg bars...and being without shoes which is what most people think of when we hear 'barefoot'...but to me that's just 'shoe less'. http://www.equinextion.com/id9.html
The barefoot in which the cure lies is found in a combination of things. Lifestyle, diet and trimming in a particular way vs...just trimming the toe nails so to speak http://www.equinextion.com/id31.html
Here is a page with some good articles on it.
One near the bottom written by a Vet in the states entitled navicular dis ease. http://www.equinextion.com/id37.html

Navicular can and will heal...arrest and reverse the process...with the right medium to do so. Bones heal, skin heals, tendons, ligaments and muscles all heal...feet heel, founder, navicular, pedal ostitis...all heal with the right trim, diet and lifestyle.

A 'navicular' foot can develop and grow out of being that shape which predisposes it to having navicular symtoms. A navicular horse can and will grow a new foot over time with the right guideance from the trimmer, which has even been owners learning to trim for themselves.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:52 am

I"m not talking about the 'foot' itself. More so the coffin bone....how do you fix a coffin bone that's dropped and rotated? I know muscles, tendons, bones can all heal but, I just don't get how you can fix a roatated coffin bone in a navicular horse by a barefoot trim?
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:57 pm

The barefoot in which the cure lies is found in a combination of things. Lifestyle, diet and trimming in a particular way vs...just trimming the toe nails so to speak

I spent about 3 to 4 years doing that with my horse, the combination was only ever temporary for him. He now is in rockers with special fitted pads & a silicone base filler.
He is about 85-90 % as sound as he will ever be, as he ever was. But he is comfortable & if I keep him balanced & shoed he is capable of nearly as much as most horses his size.
His pain just prior to his diagnosis was extreme, the worst I had ever seen him in, now he has mostly good months, occasionally an off day but rare.

I don't agree with Navicular Diesese being cured as in having a navicular bone returned to fully healed bone. Possibly with Navicular syndrome depending on the dynamics of the issues.

I have read & read & read up on Navicular and dealt with it in the past a few times ( not with one of my own personal horses tll now)

So please undertand I'm not being disrespectfull to you, I also agree regular trimmers can do some severe damage in & of themselves. But with my vet & farrier working as a team my horse has thrived w/o meds and his hooves are growing healthier then they have in sometime.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Betamax on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:43 pm

Yes...shoes help numb the feeling in the foot...closes off some circulation and sensation. They do not not cure but they make a holding pattern but eventually that fails too. How long has your horse been in shoes now? How old? do you have pictures of his feet? can we even post pictures on this site?

I"m not talking about the 'foot' itself. More so the coffin bone....how do you fix a coffin bone that's dropped and rotated? I know muscles, tendons, bones can all heal but, I just don't get how you can fix a roatated coffin bone in a navicular horse by a barefoot trim?

You are speaking of two different things here... 'navicular' is in the back of the foot. The coffin bone lies in the front of the foot. http://www.equinextion.com/id31.html

Both can be healed and reversed. both are symptoms of chronic poor hoof form.
It takes about 6 to 10 months to fully restore CB position. It can take 6 to 18 months to fully heal navicular. That means to make the horse working sound. This works especially well when the horse is under 15 years old...but I have documented near miracles happen in horses as old as 34. I have never met one that did not respond positively...and become far better than they ever were in shoes.

I did post some links above. there is more info on the site too, with case studies etc.

I'm working on a case right now of a mare who has gone down the 'treatment' road and did ok for a while and then crashed again...then went back up and down and up and down and then crashed hard. So many come to me this way. I welcome them... but it is sad that they spent so much time in conventional 'wisdom'.
This particular mare simply could and would not walk any more...spent most of her days lying down. Vet and farrier working together...bla bla bla. after trying for years...they recommended euthenasia and the owners somehow found me. I have only trimmed her once...i go back to see her tomorrow which will be 3 weeks...but the day after i was there...i got a phone call with amazed owners who found her waaaaaaaaaaay out in the field with the others and they haven't seen her move out of the yard for months! She wasn't 'sound'...but she physically and mentally felt better after allowing the feet to be relieved a bit through taking off the shoes and a trim...which shifted her stance and posture, which is a like a chiro adjustment...her eyes lit up and she is on her way to healing.
It's sort of like people medicine...about 20 years ago...probably less...the Dr.s said to you after surgery for example..."you just rest until you feel better...stay still so you can heal"...and now a few hours after surgery.."get up, get moving, THAT's the way the body heals".
If the horse feels better after each trim...you got the trim right! IF horse is 'off' or NQR for days after...then that's a step backwards and an opportunity to say 'oops' and learn from it.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:21 am

Ok so what about a horse with laminitis....can that be reversed once the coffin bone has dropped and rotated?

Yeah, I realize I was talking about 2 different things.....LOL...I had myself confused for a min there.....lol I was thinking navicular and founder at the same time.....LOL

How is a hoof trimmed to repair a foundered horse? vs a Navicular horse? Same or different?
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:08 pm

Yes...shoes help numb the feeling in the foot...closes off some circulation and sensation. They do not not cure but they make a holding pattern but eventually that fails too. How long has your horse been in shoes now? How old? do you have pictures of his feet? can we even post pictures on this site?

I beg to differ, the point of the special shoes & pads are for the feet not to be numbed to the pain and to get the circulation going in a better manner in which it was prior to the application.
As I said they are specially made pads that are not found just anywhere & the silicone filling between pad & hoof enable the hoof to breathe allowing to absorb the concussion & allow for a stable breakover point. Of course this is all very dependent on how good at their job your farrier is.
As I stated in my last post my horses hoof growth has been phenomonal since having thses shoes applied, you dont get healthy hoof growth or actually any true growth without circulation over time.

He has been using these shoes comming a year & has only improved over the year. I am lucky to have a great team in my vet & farrier its an absolute that they work together as part of you & your horses team.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Betamax on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:27 pm

You are allowed to have your own opinions. I'm so past arguing over this anymore. I have done my time defending my words. I personally have documented case after case after case of healing and reversing the symptoms of navicular and laminitis /founder etc etc...over the past decade. I do know what special shoes are and what they tout they do. I will respectfully have to disagree with this old school thought process.

As for the coffin bone rotation question and wether one can 'fix' it through a trim...the simple answer is yes. As stated above...it can take about 6 to 10 months to fully restore CB position. The trick is in the trimming to get the right growth happening to re attach the inner wall to the coffin bone. Shoes provide a ''bandaid' solution...mechanically trying to hold things together can not ensure strength and integrity in growth or endurance. They brace the foot...and that has been proven to shunt circulation...not increase it.

It's not about having shoes or no shoes anyhow...as shoe less horses can have the same kinds of problems as their shod counterparts...the secret lies in the trimming...and then to diet and lifestyle. There is no magic trim that fits all...but the philosophy of how to trim, where, when and why can be learned by anyone who wishes to invest a little time to learn.
I'm not saying you have to believe me...I'm just putting it out there for all to ponder.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:07 pm

I can't see how anything placed on a hoof regardless of the material it's made of...How it can allow the hoof to breath? It covers the hoof, bars, frog, etc etc the hoof can't breath...can you breath if something was covering your face like that? No probaly not.

anyways....

Thanks Betamax for the info. I actually passed on your website to my aunt who's horse just foundered and she spent a stupid amount of money on shoes for him!
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:49 pm

Great and informative response Betamax, I'm a huge beleiver in barefoot, and you've struck my interest :-)
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:53 pm

You are allowed to have your own opinions. I'm so past arguing over this anymore. I have done my time defending my words. I personally have documented case after case after case of healing and reversing the symptoms of navicular and laminitis /founder etc etc...over the past decade. I do know what special shoes are and what they tout they do. I will respectfully have to disagree with this old school thought process

I didn't realize we were arguing, I had thought we were having a discussion between people that had different experiences & opinions. I am not a shoe fanatic, in fact other then Whitey I have no other horses that where shoes.

I don't see my experience as an old school thought process either, I was sharing my recent experience with my horse & the fact that he has improved over the past year.

I can't see how anything placed on a hoof regardless of the material it's made of...How it can allow the hoof to breath? It covers the hoof, bars, frog, etc etc the hoof can't breath...can you breath if something was covering your face like that? No probaly not.


Christie I'm not going to argue with you on the merits of Whitey's success, I know you don't care for Greg & that's fine. But had you ever been at the barn last winter & spring you may have noticed how cripled Whitey was & how much he has improved since Sean & Greg have worked on him.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:54 pm

Not saying what you did wasn't right, just saying there is ANOTHER way of accomplishing the same goal.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:58 pm

I never said there wasn't Shannon, but I disagreed with the idea that N.D can be cured as opposed to N.S. I was merely stating my experience & the fact that I have yet to meet anyone that has factually cured Navicular with documented proof by a Vet.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:03 pm

Improvements in therapeutic trimming and reshaping of the hoof have come a long way I'm sure, I also doubt many farriers are going to encourage people to opt for trimming vs. expensive pads/shoes. Nor do I think many are skilled enough to offer any other option as well.

Whitey is doing awesome now, regardless of how the barefoot vs shoe dispute goes or how much everyone thinks they are the experts.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  dreamalittledream on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:09 pm

Couldn't agree with you more Shannon. We have had our share of bad farriers, but in this case it was not my farrier that suggested the shoes or diagnosed my horse it was my vet.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:27 pm

Of course it was, a vet is also not a farrier (not to say a vet's word is gospel either, but that's another thing). Farriers have been helping with navicular using shoes predominately, because that's what people trust. People are also not willing to try anything new, as with something they don't know much about your not gonna trust it. When their horse is in pain, they just want them better asap, which is obviously expected. I'm sure there are lots of crap farriers out there (you said it, we HAVE had enough experiences with them) who claim to be able to aid in such issues such as nav., and have done quite the opposite.

It's damn scary knowing who to trust in a situation like that, what's also scary is trying a new technique.
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Re: Need farrier for navicular horse

Post  Gallamist on Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:02 am

Yeah I see how Whitey has improved. But, would you ever try barefoot triming to see if it would work for him?

I am all for barefoot trims and keeping my horse barefoot....he has never had shoes, Sammy had shoes ONCE other then that I kept all my horses barefoot...even my TB was barefoot.

I am not saying shoeing a horse is wrong or bad. I am simply saying I dont UNDERSTAND how covering a hoof still allowes the hoof to breath??

All for learning more and keeping my mind OPEN to new ideas and such.

My aunts horse just had a horrible case of laminitis and she just about had to euthanize him. coffin bone dropped and roated. She spend a STUPID AMOUNT ON SHOES for him! She recently found a educated barefoot trimmer that specializes in stuff like this and he's now barefoot and healthy, rideable again and happy! That's gotta say something for the barefoot trim!
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