The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

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The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  sierra on Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:36 am

So I am looking for advice for a boarder horse I have here that just came in and does NOT like to be tied, or can't deal with being tied with anything else going on that is remotely stressful. I know it isn't my issue, not my horse, but thought I'd seek out some advice to pass along that may help out.

The horse is a 2 yr old warmblood, so basically full size horse that came in last week with the theory that she tied!! Boarder soon learned that she hasn't had much tying experience....she pulls back violently, sits right back and has broke a shank (my bad, used the wrong lead rope!). I have let the owner use my "be nice" halter (rope halter with bronze points on the poll) which I have used on horses with tying issues with great success.....basically curing the issue in a day or two. This mare is REALLY stubborn and sits back really hard with even this halter on double shanked to ensure she doesn't break free....even after 3 days of tying with (no stressors or handling issues) no reason for her to pull back. She has rope burn on her poll as she has pulled so hard and I worry about permanent damage or head shyness as a result. She can stand quietly (and has done so for 5-15 minute stretches) but she "blows" every now and then and puts her whole heart into it. We tie her high....above wither height to a firm post and she has enough room for the "give" she should need.

Any advice or experience with anything like this?? I'd love to pass along some advice to her as the experience or advice I have for what to do doesn't seem to be working so far!! A good reminder on why it is a MUST to start training those weanlings and yearlings to tie!!
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  TradeMark on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:59 am

I surprised the rope halter wouldn't fix this issue quite quickly.. I know of a few full grown warmbloods (and other breeds, just the horse I'm talking about was a 10yr old WB lol), fully mature, etc.. had never had an issue before, but once he spooked and ended up breaking his leather halter, figured it was an awfully easy way to get to that feed room... his owner put him in a plain rope halter and that was cured right then and there the next time he tried it. I've also heard of people tying their horses to themselves (ex their leg, above the knee.. so when they pull back, they are pulling against themselves). I'm not sure how affective that is, or the type of knots or placement.. but maybe someone else would know more about that.

Good luck to your boarder though!
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  DressageAndRhinestones on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:15 am

I wouldn't tie the horse to itself... with a mare that pulls so violently there is a possibility of breaking bones.

Personally, I would take a line of cotton rope thick enough that it's not going to do any damage and so that it isn't going to break, about 20 to 25 feet long and put it around her butt and tie is to what she's tied to. Make sure it's loose enough so it's not "engaged" when she is just standing there but when she pulls back it's going to engage sooner than the headstall is going to. I wouldn't leave this on for only a week, I would tie her with it and two shanks and a rope halter for a few months at least. I would also be doing a lot of ground work with this horse, including tons of ground driving (only at the walk though).

Good luck!
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  ABSOLUTELY RADIANT on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:39 am

Just a little insight to how the horse see's it from Pat Parelli....there are tons of other NH trainers on line that she could research and try. It's not going to be a quick fix at this point.
Good Luck and keep us posted.

PROBLEMS
Pulls Back

Horses, by nature, are claustrophobic. They are terrified of restriction. So in order to learn how to stand tied they need to learn how to override everything nature has encoded their DNA to resist. Imagine yourself in your horse?s shoes... there you are, standing quietly, you put your head up for some reason and something grabs you from behind your ears. PANIC! Must be a huge predator. I?m going to die!

When a horse pulls back it's not about being tied so much as learning how to remain 'left brain' in a 'right brain' situation.

Most horses that pull back are reactive types, insecure, nervous, unconfident and bracy. Worst of all, they don't know the appropriate response to pressure when it comes to the human world. It's the opposite. In the wild the feeling of pressure invokes the fight or flight response. In "Humansville" it should mean "don't worry, yield and relax".

This is something you need to teach your horse because it totally goes against his instinct and in Parelli, 'teach' is the operative word. Traditionally speaking, horses are 'taught' to tie through the sink or swim method. They are tied to big strong posts with big strong ropes and sometimes a rubber inner tube so there's a bit of stretch. Some horses make it, some break their necks - the solution lies in communication (see the Seven Games DVD) and understanding and reading horse behavior (see Parelli HorsenalityTM DVD).

Teach your horse to use his left brain. Teach him to have an appropriate response to pressure in the human environment.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  Gallamist on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:10 am

I'm suprised the rope halter didn't fix this either. I had a TB mare that pulled down a big ol' kreasote log on me many yrs ago....lol

Has she tried the inner tube thing? I can't remember what 'nh' trainer uses it. Parelli perhaps...

Putting an inner tube around a sturdy post and tying the horse to the inner tube...when they pull back nothing breaks but there is alot of give in the inner tube...

Not excatly sure how it's supposte to work but, i'm sure if you look at some of the parelli stuff it will explain in more detail. I just don't know where my book is right now....lol
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:16 pm

I agree, that's what happens when you don't train them properly when they're babies. Sorry you have to fix someone elses stupidity :-(

My 11 yr old appy apparently didn't tie well when I got her, her old owners told me not to tie her because she'll just break your lead. She does stand still just throwing the rope over an object, but since that's not how I roll I stuck a rope halter on her and securely tied her. Sure enough one day she pulled, she gave in after a few seconds realizing the halter is just getting tighter and she's not free. My rope halter is now warmblood size, but it did the trick.

Sounds like you are trying everything I would have tried, sorry I have no advice for you tho :-( Good luck, I'm sure you'll have it figured out with some help.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  EquineAlberta on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:11 pm

SOme of the big European studs now realize that young horses SHOULDN'T be tied, unless in a very enclosed space like a trailer. They wait until the horse is already started undersaddle to tie it. The main reason being that pulling back when the spine is still very undeveloped will cause nerve damage. I waiting to tie with my home bred warmbloods and it worked fine. Training them undersaddle give them confidence in the barn/around people, and taught them to give to pressure.

So, if this was my horse, I simply wouldn't tie her in the barn. I would loop the rope through a ring of binder twine so it is somewhat secure but still has some give so she won't panic, and would hold the other end. Or get a Clinton Anderson tie ring. I would also assume she has nerve damage and get her looked at by a vet/massage therapist. I would likely give her pole/neck time to heal for a while before doing any leading work with her either.

As she matures and learns to give to pressure she will get better about tying.

Tying a horse that pulls back in a rope halter is like putting a thin bit in a horses mouth that has no idea to give to the pressure of the bit; unnessicarily harsh and training through pain rather an understanding. Be Nice halters are not for tying in. THey are for leading only.

Karen
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:39 pm

In my case, my 11 year old knew well enough to give to pressure... as she's been under saddle for quite a while. Learning that pulling is uncomfortable helped her to stop challenging the pressure. I don't call that inhumane whatsover, nor do I think tying a 2 yr old in a rope halter is inhumane either.

When it comes to babies I agree, I also didn't wait until my horses were trained under saddle to tie them. I didn't just run to tie them either, they knew to give to pressure in my hand and were comfortable in the barn before I tied them to something sturdy.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, all horses and situations are different and it's great to have varying opinions and varying options when what isn't working with someone works with others.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  sierra on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:24 pm

Thanks to everyone for the positive comments and suggestions. I feel I made a big mistake by assuming the filly was trained to tie by her prior owner and was testing the situation as she had broken a leadrope and been rewarded for the behaviour. The only reason I suggested the halter was to help reinforce what I thought she knew and understood and stop a bad and dangerous habit from developing. My own personal horses have always been pretty well handled from a young age and are taught to stand for grooming and picking feet without being tied as youngsters...by the time they need to be tied, they basically already do it themselves and accept the whole situation very well. I think I was quite surprised that she could go from one extreme, standing quiet and still with a relaxed head to pulling back with no apparent cause.

I now have some helpful advice to pass along for my boarder to hopefully help get things back on the right track....well once the snow is gone that is, ergh!! Just when things had started to dry up around here Smile
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  Gallamist on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:10 pm

I never waited till my horse was undersaddle either to tie...LOL.

If you teach the horse properly from the start at a young age to GIVE TO PRESSURE you should NEVER have a problem with a puller!
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  myevenstar on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:35 pm

my gelding came to me at 4 years and had very little ground work done at all. Anyways, when it came time to tie him it was in a big open tie stall. I tied him in a quick release knot and remained at the front of the stall, but to the side, out of the danger area.

When he first felt the pressure, he panicked, pulled, and when he didnt "give" and continued to haul back, I pulled the release knot loose and I backed him up, *not in anger or as a punishment*. He was panicking and wanted to move backwards, so we moved backwards a fair distance. We stood a moment, relaxed, turned a few circles each way and moved forward again, tied him again, as before. We repeated this about 5 or 6 times before he realized that the pressure he felt when he pulled, didnt mean he needed to have a panic attack, that nothing bad was going to happen and he wasnt about to die, and when he backed out he didnt see any boogey man predators who were trying to swallow his head. Wink He also realized when he wanted to be silly and pull back, he ended up backing up and turning in circles. I stayed with him and talked to him through the whole thing. The next day we repeated once of twice more, and that was it.... never had a problem again.

Dont let her panick to the point of breaking ropes or hurting herself, when she blows up, and wants to haul back, pull that rope and let her move backwards, eventually she WILL relax and get tired of the backing up and doing circles. I think they even begin to forget what they were upset about or what they didnt like. The more of a fight or battle of wills you make it, the more that negative reaction and fear is going to be enforced. I dont believe different halters or lead ropes or scenarios are going to do the trick here.

To be totally honest, I was deathly afraid of letting him fight it out himself. Im crossing my fingers that it all works out for you and your boarder's mare! In case it even saves one horse, I want to share a couple of eye opening stories. Warning, somewhat graphic:

4 year old Palomino AQHA mare. She was tied, began panicking, then pulling, hauling back, rearing up and going over backwards, (this was on grassy ground) it happened in less than 20 seconds. The weight of her body snapped the lead when she went over, she started to get up, then collapsed, and blood started pouring out of her nose and mouth. There was nothing we could do, but be with her, she died in less than two minutes, before we could even dial the vet. It was absolutely devastating. When she flipped, she hit her head, a splinter of her skull lodged in her brain and she hemorrhaged. It was over so fast. She was beautiful, her name was Karma.

#2 Cowboy breaking some mustangs asked to borrow my geldings halter to teach his mare to tie, my gelding had a halter lined with something like memory foam on the pressure points. He tied the mare up, ( no safety release knot) threw his hands to scare her and get her to move and feel the pressure, she pulled, panicked, reared, the heavy duty tying post rocked in the ground and my halter snapped as she went over backwards. She went running hell bent for election, he had a hell of a time catching her, but she was ok.

3# Little gelding and new horse owner at the barn I was boarding at, had tied her very green horse... he panicked and pulled and reared way up, smacked his head on something and ended up needing 10 stitches to close the big gap on the top of his head....he was still head shy months later.


Last edited by myevenstar on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  JezzaBella on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:47 pm

Gallamist wrote:I never waited till my horse was undersaddle either to tie...LOL.

If you teach the horse properly from the start at a young age to GIVE TO PRESSURE you should NEVER have a problem with a puller!

Nuff said :-) I think horses pull for different reasons as well, I think my mare pulled because she knew it'd break. Once she figured she isn't gonna free herself it was cured. Yes, a rope halter cured that and no, no one was killed. Some horses plain ol panic, thinking something is going to kill them and they have to break free no matter what. I know of someone's mare who was always tied in a leather halter, she quit using them (although pretty, they break much too easily). Mare doesn't pull anymore.

You can't say changing the equipment isn't going to work, sometimes it is the solution, hopefully because it's the easy one. It's up to the owner to know their horse enough to figure if it's a software or a hardware problem, they are the one's who know the particular horse.

When I tie a horse, it doesn't have enough slack to rear in the first place, just so they don't take up too much room in the barn aisle.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  myevenstar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:12 am

They dont have to rear very high to get the leverage to go over, or sideways. Maybe changing equipment could help, in this particular situation however, it doesnt sound like its a matter of needing to tie her harder, or with tougher equipment.

Its the same idea as a bit, if your horse is hard to handle, tossing it's head or what not upgrading to more severe bits or tying their mouths closed, is enforcing a negative experience, throwing more fuel on the fire and eventually that horse is going to run when it sees you coming. I am big on positive enforcement.

You can build a house on a rotten foundation, but in the first storm its going to crumble. :/ Not trying to offend anyone, after all with any advice, you pick and choose what makes sense to you, and go with it!

I agree, sometimes a horse may "learn" a naughty habit, and sure treat it accordingly, but for a horse that is genuinely panicked, better safe that sorry.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  Neil Dimmock on Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:48 am

99999999


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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  EquineAlberta on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:55 pm

Myevenstar, your tactic with your horse was the best advice I have ever heard for working with a chronic puller! I also agree that the risks associated with forcing the horse to be tied by various means is dangerous.

I have seen a few horses with scars between their front legs, and damage to their spine from the belly rope fix. As a trainer, a LOT of the "issues" I get to fix have little to do with the actual riding/training, and a LOT to do with muscle and nerve damage from accidents, the use of force when training, or from pulling back.

I can't wrap my head around the logic that a horse pulls back because they know they can break the rope. Pulling back must be VERY painful and frightenning for the horse. They pull back because of a build up of anxiety.

I would WAY rather wait to tie my dressage horses than risk them being perpetually crooked or having a damaged spine/nerves because I felt I needed to tie them up before their spine was anywhere close to developed. Not sure why that is such a shocking concept.

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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  JezzaBella on Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:30 pm

EquineAlberta wrote:

I would WAY rather wait to tie my dressage horses than risk them being perpetually crooked or having a damaged spine/nerves because I felt I needed to tie them up before their spine was anywhere close to developed. Not sure why that is such a shocking concept.

Karen

So, I'm guessing you don't take your horse in a trailer or out on trail rides when you can't possibly get around tying. Well, until their spine is developed of course. It's a shocking concept because your basically insulting all people who have started teaching their horses the basics when they are young (when it's easiest IMO). I love and respect my horses and take huge pride in how I've started out the few I have and how I've handled the older ones who needed help with things.

For myself, teaching things like tying when baby is even still at momma's side has been best. As well as feet/farrier training. Unfortuneately some haven't had that option tho. I'm not saying it's a stupid idea for anyone to not tie until their horses are grown, just would be pretty stupid for ME. Maybe I can just let my horses free range graze during trail ride breaks and such. Homing pigeon style.

Yes I'm against tying a horse who isn't mentally ready for it, no I don't think it's 'cruel' to use something as basic as a rope halter to teach a horse to yield to pressure early on.

Obviously the poster starting this thread needs some more help than a simple rope halter, there has been some great advice offered in here by a few and I wish with great advice it didn't have to come as offensive and insulting to the MANY other horse lovers here. What is YOUR right way, might not be the right way for others or their horses. I know a friend who was using his mare to drag logs around, not for anything else other than exposure, giving her a job, and desensetizing. NOT something I'd deem safe for my mare, but I know her enough to respect that.

People need to realize when it is and isn't safe to tie their horse. It's that simple. Many will grab a brand new weaner and just tie em to something and let them fight it out til they figure it out 'cowboy style'. I'm sure with that you get your spinal cord issues, but even then I think it's pretty few and far between.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  Neil Dimmock on Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:14 pm

999999999


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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  Gypsy_Vanner on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:31 pm

Never having cured this type of behaviour or come across having to deal with it I would have to agree with Neil on this one. It sounds like a real good way to train the horse not to pull. I don't really see how it could be dangerous to the horse done properly as the rope is being placed on a very strong part of the horses body. JMO of course.

Good luck with he poblem. Neil I'll have to try that technique out as it sounds like a good solution.
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  EquineAlberta on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:28 pm

JezzaBella if you read what I wrote in my first post, you would understand that I meant I don't tie when there is the possibility they can pull back. In a trailer I would have them in a stall, where they can't pull back without hitting the wall. In the barn I fake tie them, so if they panic they can get loose before they hurt themselves, (or tie to binder twine if they good in the barn) but still get used to the pressure of the rope.

Insult people that tie their young horses? I didn't mean to! Only the people that think allowing or even encouraging them to pull back and think it is ok for them to work out if it when their spine is such a fragile, growing state. Some horses learn to tie at a young age, and are ok with it and never pull back, but that is obviously not the case here.

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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  JezzaBella on Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:25 am

EquineAlberta wrote:JezzaBella if you read what I wrote in my first post, you would understand that I meant I don't tie when there is the possibility they can pull back. In a trailer I would have them in a stall, where they can't pull back without hitting the wall. In the barn I fake tie them, so if they panic they can get loose before they hurt themselves, (or tie to binder twine if they good in the barn) but still get used to the pressure of the rope.

Insult people that tie their young horses? I didn't mean to! Only the people that think allowing or even encouraging them to pull back and think it is ok for them to work out if it when their spine is such a fragile, growing state. Some horses learn to tie at a young age, and are ok with it and never pull back, but that is obviously not the case here.

Karen

Okay, thanks for clarifying cause I took it the wrong way. Embarassed
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  myevenstar on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:27 am

Understanding neck pain

I found this in a stumble this morning.


Sue Dyson FRCVS
6 April, 2004
A horse's neck comprises seven vertebrae that are positioned in the lower part of the neck, just above the jugular furrow. The vertebrae connect with each other by paired joints on the left and right sides — the facet joints — and by joints between the vertebral bodies. The spinal cord passes through each vertebra and nerve roots emerge between each vertebra.
Above and below the vertebrae are large muscles responsible for neck and head movement along with forward movement of the forelimbs. The crest region is formed by the nuchal ligament, which attaches to the back of the head and runs along the top of the neck to the withers.
All anatomical structures within the horse's neck are potentially vulnerable to injury, which is often the result of trauma. For example, a horse that falls on its neck while jumping may develop bruising, muscle damage or a fracture to a vertebra, while a horse which pulls back while tied up may damage the poll region or the joint between the first two vertebrae. Overstretching can also cause muscle strain
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Re: The dreaded horse that pulls while tied!!

Post  goneshowin on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:58 pm

Have you considered a horse chiropractor? My dad is one and we have 16 horses and whenever someone has an issue pulling back, not standing for the farrier, ect. I just go to him and tell him what they are doing and he goes and pops them back in and the problem is solved. if the horse is only 2 chances are you wont have to have it done alot to start with to keep her or him in, but it might help. My gelding gets pretty picky and as soon as hes been chiropracted hes good as new and the problem disappears.
just a thought
;0)
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Evenstar has it and the Parelli Post

Post  Painted Geisha on Sat May 02, 2009 4:33 pm

This is a dangerous behaviour because horses have broken their necks or broken objects off that then 'chase' them.

That's similar to what I did with tying in the wash bay. My young horse had a serious injury and had to learn quick how to stand tied even in a yucky, clausterphobic environment like getting cold hosed. It's hard to find friends to hold them when you're cold hosing 2-3 x a day. Anyway, I looped the lead (rope halter used) through the ring and held on to it. When she'd panick and pull back hard, I'd give a little, but hang on until she calmed down and then release the pressure. Reward standing still, then snug the rope up again. If she pulled back again, I'd give a little to prevent the panick (that's the principle the inner tube is doing in a previous post), then reward the standing still with slack. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.

Now I've got another big jerk who paws when tied....ignoring the bad behaviour is hard to do. Learning by mistakes really stinks, especially when they are your own!

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